Each of us has felt shame at least once in our lives. The famous neuropsychiatrist Boris Cyrulnik explored this complex feeling in his latest book, “Mourir de dire: la honte” (“Dying of Saying: Shame”). During his visit to the azure city on February 12, 2011, Nice Premium interviewed him about this poison of the soul, which is actually a result of our beliefs.
Nice Premium: Why does mankind poison their existence with shame?
Boris Cyrulnik: Because they care about how others view them. If they didn’t care about others’ opinions, they would never feel ashamed. Since they care about others’ views, they give them the power to make them feel ashamed. This means that if I were alone in the world or if I disregarded everyone, I wouldn’t feel shame.
NP: You also mention the example of perverts who never feel ashamed…
BC: They never feel ashamed. For them, others don’t exist. They never take into account others’ opinions. They sometimes do shocking things and don’t care at all.
NP: Why did you dedicate a book to shame?
BC: Because Quebec sociologists have worked on what hinders resilience, which is the recovery of development after trauma. They found three factors: isolation, meaninglessness, and shame. Shame is problematic, as the person places themselves in a situation of desocialization. It is the person themselves who hinder the process of resilience by giving too much power to others’ views.
NP: From what age does shame begin to take shape in individuals?
BC: As soon as a child becomes capable of understanding another’s perspective, they can feel shame. Before the age of 3/4 years, babies don’t feel shame because there is no “other.” Or rather, the “other” is within them: if mom is sad, I am sad; if she is happy, I am happy; if she is angry, I am afraid… I am what she is or what my attachment figure is: my father, mother, older sister, whoever takes care of me. And from the age of 4, empathy becomes mature. Children know that what they think is not necessarily what others think. At that moment, they become capable of feeling ashamed because they imagine the gaze of others. Sometimes they imagine it rightly, and sometimes wrongly. They say: I’m pathetic. Therefore, others think I’m pathetic. I feel pathetic. Therefore, I think others think I’m pathetic. It’s intersubjective. Others might think it, or they might not. But anyway, since I think they think it, I feel bad.
NP: One can feel ashamed when passing an exam, belonging to a certain social category. Ultimately, is shame the result of our beliefs?
BC: Exactly. It means I believe that you believe, that you think. I represent your representations. You believe I am pathetic, so I withdraw, I sideline myself, and consequently, I make myself pathetic. Whereas if I think you think I am admirable, I will feel good under your gaze. Thus, I don’t give you that power over me since I believe you think I am wonderful. So I feel good with you, even if you might despise me, but I think you admire me. Conversely, you might not disdain me at all, but I think you do. It’s me who gives you that power.
NP: Over time, does shame take on another form?
BC: Over time yes, provided we do something about it, work on ourselves and on others. On ourselves, to strengthen and on others to say, be careful, I am not who you think I am. Whereas if I work on myself to strengthen myself and on others to change the image others have of me, I no longer need to feel shame or only exceptionally.
NP: You also talk about resilience and resilience mentors. Is having a secure environment part of an individual’s evolution?
BC: As soon as I have a secure base around me, I gain confidence in myself and can fight against shame by strengthening myself and changing the view of others. But if I don’t have a secure base around me, I feel alone, I lose confidence in myself, I worsen the feeling of shame by withdrawing or by giving others a power they don’t claim. And in both cases, I feel worse and worse. That is to say, if I have a secure base around me, I give time the time to fight this feeling of shame. And if I don’t have it, I sink into shame and feel worse and worse.
NP: What kind of work needs to be done to get rid of shame exactly?
BC: One needs to strengthen oneself, get used to working on one’s image and modify the image of others by explaining, by compensating. Compensation can also be a mask for shame. For example, someone who is ashamed of being poor will want to earn a lot of money. They will do everything to get money. So, they might earn it. It will mask their shame but it won’t make them stronger. Therefore, it’s a mechanism of compensation. Many poor people are ashamed of being poor. It’s life that made them be born into a poor environment or it is an accident of life but many poor are ashamed of being poor. Or the children who have been abandoned and are poor students for example. Or those who are mistreated at home and are bad at school. They are ashamed of being bad at school. So, they might very well hate it or, on the contrary, compensate by working extraordinarily well. They become extraordinarily good students, give up everything: friendship, outings to become good students. They compensate, are in legitimate defense but don’t solve the issue of shame. They do not gain more confidence in themselves as a result.
NP: You also speak of success and say it’s not necessarily something positive…
BC: Success can be social but it isn’t necessarily personal success, personal fulfillment. Many people with intellectual, social, exceptional achievements, which in psychoanalysis are called “secondary gains of neurosis,” give up everything to succeed: emotional life, friendships, leisure, etc. They only think about succeeding. So, they end up succeeding but at a very high human cost because they are all alone. They deny that they succeed. They succeed in succeeding but don’t succeed in flourishing. We cannot talk about resilience. Social success is not a criterion of resilience. However, if social success is accompanied by emotional, intellectual, life success, then we can talk about resilience.
